Curse

Epinephrine · Nov 27, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I don't call for nerfing things that often, but this spell is absurd.

Unnatural Signet may have been a bit weak as a hard counter to spirit builds, I'll grant that. It was weak to the point that it was hard to justify bringing it, even if you knew your enemy would pack spirits, since you can do nearly as well with Flare.

Spiritual Pain though, is a decent spell even without any spirit boosted effect. It's good enough that it sees use with GoR as a spiking spell, it has made its way onto many domination mesmer's bars as a staple spell and so on. And that's without the vs spirits bonus - when used with spirits in play it simply rips them and whatever team was using them to pieces.

If a hard counter is put in versus something it should be in general a bit of a disadvantage if you don't face it; Shields Up! is nice versus R-spike, but doesn't do much otherwise. Unnatural Signet is pretty lousy without spirits to face (though even then it's a bit weak), Vocal Minority does nothing if the foes don't use a paragon and so on. There are valid reasons NOT to pack these skills, since taking them uses a skill slot against the possibility that it might be useful. In addition, most of the hard counters don't really fully oppose; a single copy of Shields Up! will help versus an R-Spike group, but hardly is persistent coverage, and Vocal Minority is a hex, easily removed unless really quickly buried; even then, the easy solution is to have a convert hexes in the build. A single Unnatural Signet may allow disposing of spirits relatively fast, but it won't keep up with two spirit users for example. Spiritual Pain is just out of lines as a counter goes.

It's too good as a counter, with AoE damage spammed on everything, and MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY too good when the condition isn't present.

B Ephekt · Nov 27, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Spiritual Pain is a very good skill, no doubt, but it's hardly overpowered. The 1 second cast time means it's quite an easy spell to interrupt, and there is always the staple counter for any spam skill: Diversion. Also, the 30 second recharge and 10 energy cost make it of limited use; a mesmer spamming it on spirits won't be able to do so for long, and any mesmer planning on spamming it on other players will have to dedicate their elite to GoR or Mantra of Recovery to be effective.

fallot · Nov 27, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

The cast time is way too low, it needs to be upped a bit.

Lyphen · Nov 27, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48

I never liked it. Felt incredibly dirty after using it. Nearly 300 damage in AoE in three seconds was just too...unmesmery.

baddog992 · Nov 27, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

I love this skill finaly a counter to spirit spammers, yes lets nerf it quick! I think its a very balanced skill it kills the spirit spammer and the spirits themself otherwise spirits are nearly unkillable for a mezmer to take down, nothing affects them in the mezmer line except for this skill and the signet. The signet for spirits are very weak, almost to being unusable in my opinion, why take the lousy sig. that can only kill 1 spirt, in say about 2 minutes when it could used for a realy good skill?
This skill is in regards to a spirit spammer and im loving it.

fallot · Nov 27, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

It's not the whole spirit deal that makes it powerful. It's a 1s (less) cast time ~100 damage spell, it's too good in spikes. The OP doesn't want it to be so good even when spirits are not present. This skill is everywhere right now.

Drewfense · Nov 27, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Spiritual Pain is a very good skill, no doubt, but it's hardly overpowered. The 1 second cast time means it's quite an easy spell to interrupt, and there is always the staple counter for any spam skill: Diversion. Also, the 30 second recharge and 10 energy cost make it of limited use; a mesmer spamming it on spirits won't be able to do so for long, and any mesmer planning on spamming it on other players will have to dedicate their elite to GoR or Mantra of Recovery to be effective.

The threat to spirits is minimal. Yes it hurts, but smart placement of the spirits makes it negligable (and as stated, the mesmer wont be able to keep up energywise).

Anyways, no one is playing spirit builds atm and people aren't bringing it to counter spirits. The one second cast time with fast casting is an extremely difficult interrupt. There is a reason almost every popular dom mesmer skill has a 2-3 second casting time. It is also more damage than Energy Surge. I have often heard players say if Spiritual was an elite, they would take it over Energy Surge. It is faster cast and more damage for 10 second longer recharge. Sure Energy Surge is edenial, but in the current state of the game, edenial is not a reasonable tactic.

Look at Ward Against Noobs. When they spike with Energy Surge, it is not only interruptable, but it is infusable. When they spike with Spiritual, it really is not interruptable and it is not reasonable infusable. The high damage prevents reactive infusing and the short casting time prevents pre-infusing.

Kinda sticking with Ward Against Noobs, but other people are running it as well. One of the most broken mesmer skills at the moment is Wastrels Demise. I remember when factions came out, talking to some alpha members about how Unnatural Signet would be imbalanced if it had a 20 sec recharge. It would be a 70ish damage 1 second follow up to a spike which isn't to shabby. Especially considering the mesmer has no legitimate spike follow up (other than Shatter Enchantment). So anet nicely adds Wastrel's Worry, a 1/4 second follow up that does 81 dmg and recharges in 8 seconds. It is the most potent follow up to a spike ever in the game. In comparison, it is a far greater follow up than Punishing Shot with dual orders. Absolute idiocy.

Edit: A general rule I use when looking at forums. If anyone says the only counter to something is Diversion, then the skill is overpowered. Diversion is an indirect counter to everything. Making the statement implies there are no other counters. As a sidenote, I can gaurantee you ever skill in chapter 4 will be counterable by Diversion.

Helcaraxe · Nov 27, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

yes, let's nerf mesmer some more... as if we haven't had enough of the nerf bat.

Honestly, with this skill, mesmers might actually start to get some respect in PvE. And if you are worried of spiritual pain spikes, then lets nerf every other skill that does large damage. Necros, rangers, eles, warriors, rits, all of those can spike too.

Ehecatzin FlyingCrab · Nov 27, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

And if you are worried of spiritual pain spikes, then lets nerf every other skill that does large damage. Necros, rangers, eles, warriors, rits, all of those can spike too.

I agree, mesmers are for team support granted, but the again it was about time that Anet gave us something to help in the spike.

fallot · Nov 27, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

How detached from reality do you have to be to refer to a class in such personal terms ? Just keep repeating this: "I am not a mesmer, I play a mesmer" ad infinitum. Seriously, people are getting offended ??

Ehecatzin FlyingCrab · Nov 27, 2006, 09:43 PM // 21:43

actually you are the one who seems to be offended, I like to play a mesmer, I play mesmer as my main character. but I dont wear maks if that's what you mean.

the again fallowing you logic...how detached from reality do you have to be to create a rant to attack a class in such personal terms...you really seem offended by the spike capabilities of spiritual pain.

A User Name · Nov 27, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

To be honest I would rather see Anet nerf Energizing Finale and do something about the mess that paragons have made GvG and HA even more of a mess. But there is no doubt that spiritual pain is a very strong skill but how much of a nerf do you want and remember Anet has boosted the power of alot of skills making the games faster. Also Diversion is a good counter (but doesn't it counter everything as stated before), but interupting it could be hard with only a 1 sec cast - fast casting bonus. Remember the paragons, "Incoming" works well against it and its not like people don't bring paragons. I don't think Anet really needs to nerf spiritual pain in the current metagame lol. I think there are more skills that need to be nerfed before it should be. Anyway only my opinion.

@Drewfense- you mean Wastrel's Demise? I know what you mean but just pointing it out.

Epinephrine · Nov 27, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Look, I get that people who use it like it. It's a great skill, but it's too good when spirits aren't present. It's a 1 second casting AoE damage armour ignoring skill, which is good enough to bring regardless of whether spirits are present. Then if there are spirits it happens to also nuke the crap out of them, and anyone nearby.

Hard counters should typically be bad to mediocre, and only be good when the condition they are countering is present. If a counter is so good that it is brought regardless it just means that nearly any team has a counter to spirits in their build.

To those who say it's interruptable, it's a mesmer skill, so fast casting of some degree is a virtual guarantee, and I defy you to find another <1 second casting armour ignoring AoE spell anywhere close to this damage. It's just wrong. Make it deal half damage when not directed against a spirit or something, then it'll be what it was meant to be, a spirit counter.

Thanks Drewfense for the support

Vermilion · Nov 27, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

snip.

I probably would agree that Spiritual Pain needs a change..and I'm sure it will be regardless of whether it needs it or not. Isn't Wastrels Demise too conditional to make it that good though?

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Nov 27, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

If you look at WD, its just a reworked version of the Factions skill Overload.

Unconditional Damage, then more damage if the target was casting.

A User Name · Nov 27, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

I get where you are coming from but maybe the skill is meant to be a damage skill with a perk I don't know. Personally with most guild teams running around with +100AL, and monks with almost unlimited energy, having a skill that can spike armor ignoring isn't all that bad since pressure builds are very rare and Incoming can prevent many a half hearted spike and a good one as well. I would say if such a skill was out before the time of the paragon then yes it would need a nerf asap but atm with the meta as it is I am more worried about other things more.

baddog992 · Nov 27, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

how about energy surge? does 90 hp with 18dom magic and has a 2 second cast and hit all enemys in range, easly spamable because of the 20 seconds clock time, spirt has 30 seconds cast time. I do realize it doesnt have the 1 cast time but its close and does steal energy from people, It does almost the same thing as spirit pain, only this is an elite.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Nov 27, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

I think if a nerf happens, it should only be to the ammount of damage it does. That way it can still spike, still have its insta-charge, but it just takes longer to kill.

Mesmers really arent about constant damage, and really shouldnt be. We have spike skills, good ones. But an insta-kill for anyone with a spirit near them. That is a tad overpowered, and that's coming from a career mesmer.

tomcruisejr · Nov 27, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

how about bringing spirit spamming back so spiritual pain won't be that much overpowered?

Drewfense · Nov 28, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helcaraxe

yes, let's nerf mesmer some more... as if we haven't had enough of the nerf bat.

Honestly, with this skill, mesmers might actually start to get some respect in PvE. And if you are worried of spiritual pain spikes, then lets nerf every other skill that does large damage. Necros, rangers, eles, warriors, rits, all of those can spike too.

It isn't about every class being able to destroy stuff. In PvE for example, it is fun being able to play mesmer and destroy mobs of enemies like an elementalist, but it isnt that simple. Each class has innate balancing in having general strengths and weaknesses. That way, choosing primary and secondary classes forces you to make sacrifices.

A simple example, a monk basically has 2 choices for secondary profession. He can go /mesmer and gain interrupts and energy management or he can go /w, /a, /d, et cetera and gain defensive stances. Either choice involves a sacrifice. Now lets say they add a divine favor linked stance that causes 75% evasion. Everyone will go /mesmer, making overpowered monk builds (and reducing variety). Similar examples can be drawn for all classes. In the case of the mesmer, his major limitation is direct damage. Giving him that not only makes the class overpowered (ability to kill quickly with AoE) in the same spell line as caster shut down (Diversion, Shame, et cetera) not only reduces the quality of other classes ("why play an ele when a mesmer can do it all"), but creates imbalances.

It isn't like Spiritual is the only thing that is imbalanced. It is a new chapter, there are a ton of skills out there that need to be fixed and wont be till the end of the season.